Makajawan
Gatling Groink
Supreme Commander Awesome[A:1]
Everything he touches turns to ice, but he warms your heart.
Posts: 813
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Post by Makajawan on Nov 28, 2009 19:10:32 GMT -5
Hachi is far ahead, but others can avoid him and try to catch up. I'm on my Wii, so I can't elaborate the rationale behind my solution, but I think decreasing the amont req speeds up projects/limiting the percentage that req can be used for will solve the problem.
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Post by Water Dumple on Nov 28, 2009 20:14:41 GMT -5
Hachi is far ahead, but others can avoid him and try to catch up. I'm on my Wii, so I can't elaborate the rationale behind my solution, but I think decreasing the amont req speeds up projects/limiting the percentage that req can be used for will solve the problem. ses hachis ALLI u biased noob Not sure if you were really talking about this, but this caught my eye. ...but others can avoid him and try to catch up.This isn't a solution by itself because of Hachi's production, but it could help. One reason he's so powerful is because he was attacked three times by single units/ten troops. (I'm just gonna say it here, that's completely broken.) If people would just stop making poorly formulated attacks on him, it could eventually reach an equilibrium. I considered attacking those people to make them stop (and of course buff myself up), but you're already doing that to one of them. Norb suggested a huge RE where we give a bunch of stuff to people to balance the power, although the problem is more impending rather than current.
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Makajawan
Gatling Groink
Supreme Commander Awesome[A:1]
Everything he touches turns to ice, but he warms your heart.
Posts: 813
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Post by Makajawan on Nov 28, 2009 22:27:43 GMT -5
I'll admit that my opinion isn't exactly objective, but we're all biased, no matter how objective we honestly try to be.
Now that I'm on the computer, I'm at liberty to explain myself. Essentially, my argument boils down to a few points:
1. The testing sample is too small for a drastic change. In the scientific method, you run multiple trials, changing only one thing at a time. We don't know exactly how this will play out; we can guess, but we can't know for sure. It's the same as the fact that we didn't know the current requisition would lead to Hachi in his current position. We either need to run longer or make a smaller change than completely altering the requisition system.
2. If it can be applied to Hachi, it can be applied to others. Hachi got lucky, there's no doubt about it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that others can't get lucky too. A break in the game has been exposed, one I do propose we fix, but the fundamental driving force of the game works the same for every player. Theoretically, I could go sending unarmed groups of ten dweevils at my opponents, allowing them to rack of requisition, therefore factories and more stuff and more requisition. That won't likely happen, which is why I propose a fix, but the point is Hachi's luck doesn't make the game less fair.
3. The project speeding is far too powerful, but that doesn't mean the idea of speeding up projects is in itself broken. Getting four days off or whatever it is and potentially finishing a project instantly has been shown to be highly if not brokenly powerful. I don't deny that. However, speeding up projects itself is not necessarily broken. The question is this: is four days worth of projects worth more or less than 1 day of troop gain? If it is, then the problem ought to be solved by lowering the days off on each project. If not, then the total requisition rewarded needs to be lowered. Another solution could be limiting how much of a project can be sped up; perhaps only half of a project can be done without requisition, or maybe make it so that it doesn't work on factories/PGCs. In short, the requisition itself doesn't seem to be an issue, just how far powerful it is relative to what it takes to earn it.
4. Hachi should not be punished for the broken system. If we make changes, don't strip Hachi of half his stuff, just readjust his gains based on the new requisition rules. If we make a ruling quickly, it won't be much of an issue. So if we decide to halve the requisition value, adjust the logs so that he only received and therefore only used half as much.
5. The worse that can happen is Hachi remains a superpower for the rest of the game and we have to start over at some point. We don't have to call a version dead just because one player is far ahead. After all, with unpredictable rules of requisition, who knows what might develop? If one player is more powerful than the others, that doesn't mean he'll just sit around crushing everyone until the end, he might just lay back and casually get involved in other conflicts as he sees fit. The diplomatic situation that would unfold could be quite interesting. Honestly, I think it would be fun to watch, and not just because I'm his ally. I'm all for fixing the requisition a bit, but let's not go reactionary and reject the system entirely. Small adjustments, and let's watch and see what happens. This game may turn out to be very interesting, what with the political ideologies and diplomacy getting thrown around. It would be great to watch it unfold and make our decisions for next version on a completed version so we can see what worked and what didn't.
Essentially, that's what I'm arguing, although presented in an admittedly absent-minded way. I hope you see what I'm getting at; whether you agree or not, I'd at least like to know my argument was heard and understood. I also support eliminated or at least toning down production achievements, as they turn out to be exponential in the way they work.
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Post by Water Dumple on Nov 28, 2009 23:07:28 GMT -5
I'll admit that my opinion isn't exactly objective, but we're all biased, no matter how objective we honestly try to be. That was just a joke. Problem is, we aren't trying to test something here: I know as staff and creator of most of the achievements that Hachi should be getting 4+ extra achievements right now, and we know what he could do with the 25+ Requisition it'll give him. If you don't think removing some achievements and one of Requisition's powers is drastic, then I agree. Otherwise, well, I think that's an exaggeration. Well, I always sort of hoped that this would be very unreliant on luck, but it's turned out to actually be very adversely affected by luck. The problem is, now that Hachi has gotten lucky, his production will be consistent and not reliant on luck any longer. That one spree of luck will affect things for the future, even if they were from battle achievements which I don't think anybody wants removed. Personally, in hindsight, I think speeding up projects in general is a little messed up simply because of what project time is: A restraint, preventing people from advancing too quickly. If one pulls into the lead, with things like Management Centers around, he will continue to go farther and farther ahead. It snowballs, if you will. If NOTHING else, I would consent to having req speed up projects for fewer days rather than wipe that ability, but it does seem like it could always be an issue. Reason is, I'm not sure you can say that troop recruitment and project speed hold exactly the same kind of value. For instance, troop recruitment is cold, hard, power. (dun ask questions about the cold hard) Troops guard your base, they attack enemies, they scout. They just do stuff. On the other hand, project speed can be used for so much more--Most importantly, enhancing your income of power in the future through things like PGCs and Management Centers, which will create a snowball effect. In that sense, it's somewhat difficult to put them side by side. Agreed. Even if his luck is going to make consequences, it's not like he broke rules or anything; it wouldn't be very fair to take away his advantage just because he got that advantage this early. Frankly, Hachi remaining a superpower seems pretty bad considering it was so early, and with very little action: He angered some people (in-game) and then was completely passive. He hasn't attacked anybody yet, but he's very powerful; the point of Requisition in the first place was to prevent turtling from being the way to victory, yet know it's backfired. Of course, even in the event that it all stays and not a bit of it is rectified, the version should remain functional. It would just work a whole lot better if some improvements were made (and I recognize that you aren't fighting against change of some sort).
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Makajawan
Gatling Groink
Supreme Commander Awesome[A:1]
Everything he touches turns to ice, but he warms your heart.
Posts: 813
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Post by Makajawan on Nov 28, 2009 23:35:15 GMT -5
Problem is, we aren't trying to test something here: I know as staff and creator of most of the achievements that Hachi should be getting 4+ extra achievements right now, and we know what he could do with the 25+ Requisition it'll give him. If you don't think removing some achievements and one of Requisition's powers is drastic, then I agree. Otherwise, well, I think that's an exaggeration. I certainly see what you're saying here, which is why in the later points I do push for some sort of change. Removing achievements and powering down the requisition for project times is far from too drastic for me, but there have been ideas presented in this topic that move beyond that. Agreed. Hachi's early on luck will be difficult to counter in late-game. However, it's the degree of the luck that I think is the problem, which is why I'm against eliminating something rather than just making it less powerful. I understand what you're saying here too, but look at it this way. A tank is essentially what a soldier is, at least in terms of what you're saying. It's a unit that is deployed to carry out operations in battle, and only aids profits in the most indirect way. In that sense, things such as project gain and troop gain can be directly related and compared. In terms of facilities such as factories, this is not the case. This is why I slipped in that last option to the list, although haphazardly and without any real hope of it being picked up on: Make Requisition useless on things such as Factories, PGCs and the like, but still useful for machines, defenses, equipment, and other such things that function in the same sense (strength increase vs. production increase). I think this could go a long way toward fixing the problem. We're more or less on the same side here; Hachi is too powerful right now, but the game would still function regardless. Decreasing the power of requisition should nerf Hachi enough to keep him in the ballpark, although still with some sort of advantage; after all, whether he had a bit of luck along the way or not, he earned the requisition. I agree that it doesn't help with the anti-turtling move we were making; perhaps make less requisition for defenders/none at all? That will help with the turtling issue. Beyond that, despite the fact that my ally is the one in question, I'm not really fighting against change because I would prefer less of it, but because I think that playing devil's advocate forces us to give both sides of the issue a really good look before we make a decision. I find that I oppose the winning side of the argument most of the time, and not just here. If both sides (or at least both extremes, as few discussions are strictly black and white) are given a good argument to fight against, the best solution will likely be drawn. That's my primary motivation for fighting for the old system to be kept intact, although I certainly agree with what I'm saying. Not like my motivation matters, but I'd just like to let you guys know.
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Hachi
Waterwraith
Captain Oliby[A:0]
I am Oliby, Businessman of Legends. Fear my accounting!
Posts: 2,355
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Post by Hachi on Nov 28, 2009 23:42:05 GMT -5
Well, I always sort of hoped that this would be very unreliant on luck, but it's turned out to actually be very adversely affected by luck. The problem is, now that Hachi has gotten lucky, his production will be consistent and not reliant on luck any longer. That one spree of luck will affect things for the future, even if they were from battle achievements which I don't think anybody wants removed. I won't really say that I'm lucky; I intended to provoke people into making hasty attacks by having Claisen insult other armies in every log. Actually, I'm intentionally passive at this time because it won't be very hard for my war machines to take down several armies out there, thus leading to more requisition for me. As for my army being a potential superpower, I don't think turtling or requisition was the key, rather it was my initial scam. I think I got around 500 Petals worth out of it in the end, which is nearly two weeks of income. Considering the game only went on for 2 months, that's a lot. My suggestion is to to have achievement give only a small quantity of troops or petals, with battle as the only source of requisition, but I also like Makajawan's suggestion since it gives a bit more flexibility to the reciever.
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Post by Water Dumple on Dec 3, 2009 23:41:41 GMT -5
Sorry about the delay in replying. I'd like to respond to Maka's post entirely but am short on time, so here are the general suggestions here. Tell me if these are alright, and they can be implemented. This may be a somewhat bigger nerf than some want, but it'd be better to pull some dirt out with the weed rather than leave its roots in the ground, free to grow into another weed. Feel free to object if this is too much.
-Battles/special events are the only means of getting requisition; no outside achievements, in other words.
-Requisition can no longer speed up project time.
-Maybe halve the amount of req you get on defense? This was one of Maka's suggestions.
Approve/disapprove? There's not really an easy, reliable way to balance out the extra req Hachi got, so all I can think of is to live with it.
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Post by Lord Raymond on Dec 3, 2009 23:48:52 GMT -5
I think that NO project speed up is a little much, so I'm with the two day speed up instead of four. At least then it's equal to a petal gain.
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Makajawan
Gatling Groink
Supreme Commander Awesome[A:1]
Everything he touches turns to ice, but he warms your heart.
Posts: 813
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Post by Makajawan on Dec 4, 2009 17:25:50 GMT -5
No objection to 1 and 3; I think halving project speed up time rather than eliminating it would work better, but it's not a serious objection so I don't really care.
In other words, sounds good to me.
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Post by tinfoilman on Dec 4, 2009 17:34:08 GMT -5
I vote yay.
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Meowzer
Waterwraith
The Picker of the 'Min
Pffffffffff
Posts: 2,249
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Post by Meowzer on Dec 4, 2009 18:21:55 GMT -5
-I vote yay, but I would still like achievements for bragging right,
-Maybe low project time, like 2=1 day.
-either or
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Bread & Butter
Fiery Bulblax
Leader of the Breakfast Battalion[A:0]
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay
Posts: 733
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Post by Bread & Butter on Dec 4, 2009 19:06:17 GMT -5
I agree completly with Meowzer.
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Bread & Butter
Fiery Bulblax
Leader of the Breakfast Battalion[A:0]
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay
Posts: 733
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Post by Bread & Butter on Dec 9, 2009 20:32:58 GMT -5
So what was the final verdict? Keeping them around for bragging rights while battle requisition has no day advancement?
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Post by Water Dumple on Dec 9, 2009 20:40:54 GMT -5
There wasn't much consistency, but that seems to make sense.
I'd also like 50% req on defense to discourage being passive, but some people don't want that on top of this.
Does anybody disagree with getting half Requisition on defense in addition to battles-only?
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Waffle-SS
Gatling Groink
The Administrator[A:0]
This means WAR, MAGGOTS!
Posts: 997
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Post by Waffle-SS on Dec 9, 2009 21:46:26 GMT -5
Seems OK to me. If it seems like defenders are really getting way too little, I suppose we could bump it up a bit later. We'll see how things play out with these new rules in place, and maybe adjust them as we go.
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