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Post by norbertk19 on Dec 5, 2008 7:49:54 GMT -5
Petrosian that's not a good idea. What if someone makes a 400 day battleship? That battleship would suddenly become impossible to destroy.
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Petrosian
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Post by Petrosian on Dec 5, 2008 8:10:16 GMT -5
If you use percentages, it works much better. It stops others from messing around with weak machine masses. If they make a 400 day battle-ship, yes, they do get 80 extra days of strength, which also the total extra strength that would be added on if I made 10 40 day Bombers. It's just fairer this way. You might reduce the percentage, but they are still better.
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Makajawan
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Post by Makajawan on Dec 5, 2008 15:57:27 GMT -5
I agree with Petrosian and Hachi on their respective points.
Also, a few minor questions that I don't really care about, I just want clarified, a few things that might make the rules easier to read, and one thing that I do want to discuss.
Wildlife Rule 15, under Newbie rules, is talking about base defenses, and then contains the sentence: This usually applies to base defense. I think that sentence should be killed.
Hocotatian Rule 3, under Newbie rules, says that Hocotatians only get pikmin, and then says that the also don't get specials. That's redundant. If you want to clarify that pikmin are not specials, then I'd suggest saying: Hocotatians only get pikmin as troops, so they don't get specials.
Hocatatian Rule 5, under Newbie rules, says that Hocotatians pay more than wildlifes for resources. This isn't much of a rule. Perhaps say that Hocotatians also buy from the universal store, but at a higher price. Wording it this way just makes it sound more rule-like.
Hocotatian Rule 7, under Newbie rules, says that Hocotatians can have advanced tech, but not that much. Now, I understand the idea that it can't be much more efficient than wildlifes, but I don't understand why it can't be significantly more advanced. Look at the Solar Empire: ridiculously advanced tech, but no more efficient than the Iron Legion. Nothing significant mechanics-wise, but I'd still like to see advanced hocotatian tech.
Now, a few clarifications:
When I do research, say to create new ammo, does that apply to all my bases, or just one?
Also, for the project slots added by bases, can they apply to any base or just their own? If my previous question is the former and this the latter, can base slots be used for research?
Finally, one point that I'd really want to make a case for: resources. Using general units doesn't sit well with me. When resources are in general units, you're pretty much obligated to make it all out of the same thing, or out of two things split equally. Now, if we multiplied all our numbers concerning resources by 100, buy resources in bundles of 100, 400 resources per building, 100 HF Rocket Metal to make a rocket ship, etcetera, then we have much more power. We can decide to a greater degree the size and proportion of our machines and defenses.
Now, you can argue that giving people more power gives way to making everything too powerful, that it's too complicated, or that with the game so close to coming to fruition, that it's too late to make a drastic change. That's fine. I'm just throwing the idea out there.
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Planet9
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Post by Planet9 on Dec 5, 2008 16:18:02 GMT -5
Have we decided about those small bonus classifications I said earlier?
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Makajawan
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Post by Makajawan on Dec 5, 2008 16:28:11 GMT -5
Yeah, they're in there, if that's what I'm thinking of.
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Post by tinfoilman on Dec 5, 2008 16:43:23 GMT -5
Although it is a little complicated, good job on the rules, WD! Hopefully I'll be able to keep up with this version!
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bulbmin
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Post by bulbmin on Dec 5, 2008 17:20:04 GMT -5
Is troop cap per base or total? So, if a Hoco had 3 bases could he have up to 60,000 Pikmin total?
Also, Maka, we originally had resources in the way you suggested, but it was too complicated so we changed it to the way it is now.
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Post by yellowpikmin on Dec 5, 2008 18:20:00 GMT -5
Why are we changing again? You think we would be okay for more than seven months.
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Post by Water Dumple on Dec 5, 2008 18:22:23 GMT -5
Wildlife Rule 15, under Newbie rules, is talking about base defenses, and then contains the sentence: This usually applies to base defense. I think that sentence should be killed. Uh...why? Pikmin are not always Ordinary troops. Kaka, for example, made several varieties that were Specials. That's why I worded it in such a way. I guess. Um, actually, in that exact same rule, is says "Hocotatian technology is significantly more advanced..." And significant is the same word you used up thar, so I don't see what the problem is. Hocotatians can make very advanced stuff--You have to see some of the stuff Norbert told me he's gonna build this time--It's just that their stuff is not 100% better and superior to Wildlifes. If it was, Wildlifes would be out of the running for technology. I don't think Battalion Wars is a great example for this, because during several points in those games it's WWI tanks (Xylvania) vs. farm equipment (Tundra), and the farm equipment wins... All of 'em. I mentioned that SOMEWHERE in there, but, you know, the rules have sort of become a bottomless ocean, so it takes a while to find stuff. The project slots added by bases only apply to themselves. See, the first one has 6 project slots because of the 4 universal ones and then its 2 self-oriented ones. Each new base adds 2 self-oriented slots. Any one of them can be used for research. Well, the problem is, as Bulbmin said, we actually did that in the first version. It took about 100 resources to make a building, 200-400 for a wall, and so on. It SOUNDS good, until you realize what a pain it is to update logs and write battles because if someone uses resources in their plans or destroys some of the defender's, that's one more variable in the whole equation. And we aren't all geniuses like you, so we can't update our logs in seconds...
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Petrosian
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Post by Petrosian on Dec 5, 2008 18:24:30 GMT -5
What about War Machine Bases? I still think that the bonus should be a percentage.
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Post by Water Dumple on Dec 5, 2008 18:25:30 GMT -5
Is troop cap per base or total? So, if a Hoco had 3 bases could he have up to 60,000 Pikmin total? Also, Maka, we originally had resources in the way you suggested, but it was too complicated so we changed it to the way it is now. That's per base. So a Hocotatian with three bases, as you said, could get 60,000 Pikmin total. If you want any more, you'd have to take prisoners and re-train them. Petrosian: I'll think about it. Your Swarmers weren't really official machines, so they wouldn't count. But perhaps the bonus could only apply to people making machines that took longer than 20 days to build. Because as Norbert said, a 400-day Battleship would then be 480 days, which not only goes over the limit but would be rather insane--That's why I don't think a percentage bonus would be great.
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Petrosian
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Post by Petrosian on Dec 5, 2008 18:28:42 GMT -5
10% is also fine, but the fact is, I could make 10 40-day planes to counter his battleship and it would work out. Now if it is a definite bonus, the battleship will probably lose every time.
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Post by Water Dumple on Dec 5, 2008 18:31:01 GMT -5
Perhaps. But note that two 40-day planes are not as good as a single 80-day one, because you can use two project slots to get the 40-day ones early, they can split up and do their own thing, and you can get the benefits of at least one of them faster than if it was a single 80-day projects. That 480-day ship would probably whup 'em (If it had significant anti-air).
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Petrosian
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Post by Petrosian on Dec 5, 2008 18:32:05 GMT -5
I see. But I think we could change it in another way. Perhaps 20% less resources to make the War Machine?
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Post by Water Dumple on Dec 5, 2008 18:33:55 GMT -5
Well, the blocky resource system kinda ruins that...I'm certain there's some way to balance this out perfectly, I'm just not sure what yet. Maybe that 10% bonus, while inconspicuous, is what we need.
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